Michael Do

Viết Về Lính

The Vietnam Archive

Oral History Project

Interview with Michael Peavey Do

Conducted by Steve Maxner

April 21, 2001

Transcribed by Shannon Geach

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Dr. Steve Maxner is the Director of Vietnam Center.

Steve Maxner: This is Steve Maxner conducting an interview with Michael Peavey Do on the 21 ^st of April 2001 at approximately 4:15. We are at the International Cultural Center in Lubbock, Texas. Thank you very much sir for agreeing to this interview. I want to begin with a discussion of your early life. I was wondering if you would tell us when and where you were born and where you grew up. 

Michael Peavey Do: Good afternoon. Thank you for interviewing me. I was born in a small province in Central Vietnam. My maternal grandfather was a Mandarin in the Nguyen Dynasty. He’s a very high official. He was Vice Minister of Foreign Affairs and Cultural and Education Ministry. My father didn’t do anything because he was born to a wealthy family and (you know) he enjoyed his life. But unfortunately, in 1948 during their uprising in Central Vietnam, the communists kidnapped my father and brought him to the North. They kept him in prison for seven years until 1954. They released him but killed him on the way back home. That is the main reason why when I grew up I would like to join the Army. I am the only son to my mom. According to the law at that time, I did not have to be drafted, but I volunteered. Then I volunteered three times. The first time to the Air Force when I was 17 and my mom filed a complaint and they had to send me home. The second time, I applied for the National Military Academy - the biggest academy in Vietnam. Once again, I was rejected because I wasn’t at the legal age to be admitted. Then I worked for U.S. Embassy for two years in Counter-Terrorism Program. When at 18, I joined the Political Warfare College and was trained in three years to become a 2nd Lieutenant. After graduation, I was sent to 5^the Infantry Division to be a rifle Company XO. But I didn’t see my future as Political Warfare Officer. So, I sent a petition to General Staff to get out of my Polwar branch to become a Company Commander. I moved up from that channel. I was wounded twice. After the second time seriously wounded, I was sent to the Air Force in 1972 to work as the Chief of Political Indoctrination of the 2 ^nd Air Division. Later, I become sick, and retired from the Air Force in 1974. I completed my Bachelor degree in Political Science. When the Viet Cong took power in South Vietnam, they sent me to the prison camps for ten years. Released in 1985, I worked whatever I could to make money. In 1990, I was saved by the U.S. government in the HO program. HO is short for Humanitarian Operation (this officially is the Ex-Political Prisoners Resettlement Program). The American government tried to get Political prisoners and their families out of Vietnam and in return, promised to do some favor to the Communists.  I came to Austin in 1990 and worked and went back to school. I got my Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering in 1998. And recently I graduated from National Technological University with a Master Degree in Engineering Management.

SM: Congratulations.

MPD: Thank you.

SM: That’s quite a story. Were you born near Hue?

MPD: About 60 kilometers north of Hue.

SM: What year were you born if you don’t mind telling me?

MPD: 1946 in Quang Tri province.

SM: T-R-I. Ok. How old were you when your father was killed?

MPD: I was one.

SM: As you grew up did your mother and your other family members, the older family members in your family talk to you about things like the Japanese occupation of Vietnam? I’m sure you were taught about these things in school.

MPD: Oh, yes. The story happened to my father too. At that time, my uncle was the Chief of Police of the capital city of Hue. He saved my father when the Japanese was about to beheaded him because he said something not favored to Japanese. (Laughs) I was told that Japanese were our enemy too.

SM: Was there very much discussion of the role that the Viet Minh did play in at least fighting the Japanese? Was that recognized and discussed when you were in school?

MPD: We understood that the Viet Minh initially was not a Communist movement. That movement also consisted of factions of Nationalists - the people who loved the country and willing to fight for independence. It also included the people in Communist Party, the Nationalist Party or Quoc Dan Dang. But when Ho Chi Minh had power he tried to eliminate the other opposing parties. So at first, the Viet Minh to us was a group of Nationalist patriots. But later on, Ho Chi Minh took advantage of the movement and got credit for his Communist party. If you recall at that time, Ho Chi Minh didn’t name his party Communist Party. He disguised it under the name Labor Party.

SM: And did they talk to you much and did you learn much early on in your life about President Ngo Dinh Diem?

MPD: Yes, we learned from school.

SM: What did you learn about him in your early education?

MPD: About Ngo Dinh Diem? Well, of course, in Vietnam, people pay respect to the leader. We learned very good things about President Diem. After President Diem was killed, people talked different things. But right now, after half a century, when I look back and I think President Diem is really a good man. He’s a man we needed. Except for the fact that he was from a Mandarin family. So, he still had some influence from the past: Feudalism.  That’s normal, because when you grow up and educated in a mandarin family, it took time to change your attitude. You cannot change in one day from a Mandarin to become a Democratic leader. I know many people disagreed with him but I accept it. In transition period, we have to accept whatever’s not quite perfect.

SM: You came from a Mandarin background were you raised in terms of philosophy or religion as a Confucianism and a Buddhism or?

MPD: Mostly Confucius taught how to maintain our morality, our social value. We pay respect to the people who have virtue, high education and serve the community.

SM: Did your philosophy change very much as you grew older?

MPD: Yes, very much.

SM: How did it change?

MPD: It changed. I accept people the way they are. Even the guy from very low class, but if he tried to improve himself, he could move up to upper class. That’s ok. But he must improve himself first. The Communists didn’t do the same way. The Communists had no education. They didn’t improve themselves. They got the power by force and they got to the higher position. It’s not acceptable. Because when they had the power they didn’t know how to work. That only makes things worse. But if you get through education and through improving yourself and you get to have power you know how to work out. Right? Like in America, there are opportunities for people from bottom layer of society to rise to the upper classes. It’s ok. No problem. That’s what changes my mind, philosophy. The second thing in my philosophy, as you see, I had gone through many years of suffering, but I still moved up. When I came to United States, I was 45 and I started over again. That’s good. My friends, my family and my sister, aunt said “You’re too old to go back to school. Now you should work to feed your family first. You cannot study and even if you study you cannot get a job.” I said, “Why not? I’m a man. If other people can do, so can I.” I spent seven years for my Bachelor’s Degree and I didn’t stop there.

SM: No, apparently not. This is jumping ahead a little bit, but while you’re on the subject when you were going to school here at first in the United States, was it hard for you to find work to go to school at the same time?

MPD: I worked at night and went to school in daytime. Now, looking back those years, I can consider it was a long nightmare because I didn’t sleep enough for almost seven years. I worked from 6 pm to 6 am. Then from work, I went straight back to school. I got into whatever quiet corner to take a short nap and went to another class and went home for a while to take a shower and ate something and then back to work. Seven years.

SM: And you did it.

MPD: I did it. I made it.

SM: In your early life and as you grew older and got closer to an age where you could enter the military, did you have any family influences, uncles or anybody where you lived that mentored you and helped you and talked to you?

MPD: Unfortunately I don’t have any uncles that close to me to teach me. But it’s my family tradition, my grandparent have a Ph. D. degree when he was 29. Most of my uncles graduated from college so that encouraged me to study. You know, nobody taught me to love the Army, love military but it looked like I was born to wear uniform. When I was about 12, during my middle and high school, I collected all the pictures of the soldiers of the Airborne, Ranger, pilots. I’d make the war on my wall with all the pictures displayed. I collected all the papers, magazines written about the Army. I told myself, “Ok, when I grow up I will be an officer.” At that time I would like to be a Navy officer. But I ended up in infantry.

SM: But you first tried to go into the Air Force?

MPD: Right, yes.

SM: Did you want to fly?

MPD: Yes, I did.

SM: Did you ever get to?

MPD: No, but when I was a Political Warfare Officer of the Air Force, I tried to go with them. I tried to fly with them. I have about 100 hours on A-37. The pilots taught me how to hold a stick, to fly back from combat to the airport. But they didn’t let me land. (Laughs)

SM: But you flew in combat missions?

MPD: Yes. That’s a crazy thing.

SM: Yes. When you turned 17 and you tried to join the Air Force was it there around Hue or did you go some place out of Saigon?

MPD: I went to Nha Trang where the Air Force Academy located. I passed all the physical examinations and was about to sign the paperwork and would be sent to training center. Then my mom found out, she asked me to drop. (Laughs)

SM: When do you remember the first time you encountered an American?

MPD: I worked with American when I was 17. Firstly, I applied for a job at 5 ^th Special Forces headquarters in Nha Trang as interpreter or translator. But at that time I didn’t speak well. So, the guy told me “Ok, your English is not good enough to be translator. Would you like to work in a warehouse operating a forklift?” I said, “Ok, yes, ok.” Then after couple of months I was sent to BOQ (Bachelor Officers’ Headquarters) in a compound near the beach, Nha Trang Beach. The guy - I don’t remember exactly his last name but first name is Dunham. He was a Staff Sergeant. He let me stay inside the compound and I was in charge of some people working there. I tried to learn more English. When I came back to my hometown Quang Tri, I applied for a job as translator. At that time I worked for American Embassy. I translated daily and weekly reports; or accompanied the advisors to work with combat troops. Later on, I improved my English.

SM: What year was that when you worked for Special Forces?

MPD: ’65.

SM: 1965.

MPD: And ’66. Yes.

SM: Was that your first interaction with an American? Or did you meet Americans before that?

MPD: That’s the first interaction.

SM: What did you think about Americans being in your country?

MPD: I met some very nice guys. Like my boss at that time. His name is Kenwood Foster. He’s very nice, handsome, good-looking guy, very nice. I didn’t have any bad ideas about foreigners because I know that they came to help us. At that time, when I went through the program like USAID (United States Agency for International Development) and USIS (U.S. Information System), USOM (US Operation Missions) or else. I learned that we were allies in free world to fight against Communism. At that time, American was leader of the free world. They would help us. It’s ok.

SM: From your perspective, as a young man, 17 years old, what did you think was going on in your country? What did you know was going on in your country in terms of the strife and the fighting between different groups of Vietnamese people?

MPD: What did you mean when young?

SM: When you were 17? When the United States finally did enter your country? What was really happening in Vietnam?

MPD: Really, at that time, I didn’t like Communism. Because what I knew about communists were bad things. They appeared at night, kidnapped people, killed people by chopping their heads and put the bodies in the rice bags. That what I knew about Communism at that time as witness. I was in a small district and my house was close to the market, neighbored to the place where district chief lived. One night, the Communists attacked the district compound. They shot mortars into my house, killing two people who stayed over night in my house. At that time, I was in the basement with my mom, and we survived. The first time I saw the communist soldier at the gate of the district compound. He wore the yellow khaki with a handkerchief covering his face. We were kids at five, six years old. I said to them, “Hey, come and see. Come see how the Viet Minh looks like. He may have four eyes, four ears, something like that.” Then when we lifted up the handkerchief we saw his face. “Oh, he’s like us. No big fun. But why is he so cruel? Why the Viet Minh so cruel? Why they kill people? Mostly innocent people.” They put the land mine along the road to kill the people who went to the market. They exploded the buses that carried the people to market. Only farmers. Why did they kill the people?  I really hate Communists from that time.

SM: When did you first encounter Viet Cong, or did you see them as the same, Viet Cong and Viet Minh?

MPD: At that time we called them Viet Cong, we began to call them Viet Cong.

SM: Why did they kill people like that? Did you ever hear propaganda about that?

MPD: They killed people like that because they wanted to carryout a terrorist act to scare people. To make people stay home, don’t go to the market or don’t work for the government. Nurses, teachers, they killed them all. They killed people who don’t support them. They made people scared and frustrated. Don’t know which side to go. Don’t know how to react.

SM: Were you ever approached by Viet Cong to join them?

MPD: No.

SM: No. Did you know Viet Cong that lived in your area?

MPD: When I was a kid I had no idea their whereabouts. But when we moved to a city we never saw them. But we got shelled from their mortars everyday. They shoot mortars every day into my district.

SM: As you worked in the Embassy, in the U.S. Embassy, did you enjoy that work translating and interpreting?

MPD: Yes, I did. It was a very good job.

SM: Was there a very large staff of Vietnamese interpreters and translators?

MPS: There were only two of us working with three American advisors and a platoon of the Nung. The Nung people came from Vietnam-Chinese border. They were recruited thanked to their loyalty.

SM: Of course that brings up the issue of ethnic minorities in Vietnam. From your perspective how did the various groups within Vietnam get along? Not just religious groups, but ethnic groups?

MPD: The group from North Vietnam, we trust them. But ethnic groups in Central Vietnam, there are differences between us. We are from today South China and we have a culture influenced by the Chinese, whereas the people in Central Highlands have influence from India. We are different in culture and religion, different in race. That’s why it’s hard for us to understand each other and to live together. The Nung and the majority of the tribes in North Vietnamese are of the same race. We are the same race. We have same influence and culture. The people in Central Vietnam have the same culture as Thai, Cambodian and Laotian. They don’t like us, they hate us. In the past, we destroyed two kingdoms in South Vietnam.

SM: Yes, the Cham.

MPD: The Cham and one more kingdom. The southern part of Vietnam today previously was the East part of Cambodia. We invaded and pushed them back to nowadays Cambodia.

SM: As you got older and became more involved politically in South Vietnam, what was the relationship from your perspective between South Vietnam and Laos and Cambodia?

MPD: Cambodian at that time didn’t like Americans and didn’t like the Communists either. In that situation, they chose to be neutral. But because they didn’t like us, they helped North Vietnamese. When North Vietnam sent troops into their territory, they complained. But they couldn’t push them out. They had to accept the North Vietnamese troops in their land. They hate both North and South Vietnamese. By that time, they couldn’t do anything to prevent the North Vietnamese. And for Laos, I believe Laotians are very nice people. But Laos is a very small country. In our past, we have several times invaded Laos and Cambodia. We dominated Laos and Cambodia. Laos got more influence from North Vietnam because it’s far from South Vietnam. After Lon Nol overthrew Sihanouk to start a Republic government and became our ally, we still did not trust them. Cambodian killed Vietnamese residents in 1970 and 1971. We had to invade Cambodia but we didn’t fight their troops. They go with us but we always kept far away from us.

SM: How long did you work for the U.S. Embassy?

MPD: I think about one year or more.

SM: Then you went to the Political Warfare College?

MPD: Right, yes.

SM: What was the emphasis of your instruction there?

MPD: We had two parts. The military training prepared us to be platoon leaders and some background in company level. The second part we studied a broad range of disciplines. Such as political sciences, humanity, economics, social sciences (sociology, anthropology, ethnology….)  Oh, a bunch of them and laws too (laughs).

SM: Is this in Da Lat?

MPD: Right, yes.

SM: Had you been to Da Lat before?

MPD: No.

SM: What did you think of it when you got there?

MPD: It’s very beautiful place. I fell in love with a young lady there and I married her about 32 years now.

SM: Wow. What did you find most challenging about your training in Da Lat?

MPD: Challenging. Well, this is very, very challenging. The Political Warfare System was not favored by American advisors. Because in American Army there was no such branch (political warfare), and we didn’t have any budgets from American assistance. The only thing we could do was to incorporate the PX into Political Warfare Department to get the budget from the US the first thing. Secondly, we had psychological office. Those were only two sections we could get money from US. We relied on Taiwanese Army for some Polwar Technique training. They sent officers to teach us about Communism. But American maintained a group of advisors to help other issues. They were not involved in our Polwar training program. That’s why Political Warfare College in Da Lat was very poor. It was very poor compared to National Military Academy, a wealthy institute. Like Michael Do to Michael Dell. (Laughs)

SM: The political aspect of your training, did it emphasize different political philosophies or did it focus on Democracy and Republicanism? What was the political aspect?

MPD: We learned almost everything. We learned the history of all political regimes. We compared between the Capitalism and Communism. Mostly we focused on Communism. We learned a lot about Communism. But honestly speaking, at that time, I learned, but I didn’t believe too much. Because I still think it’s propaganda as we fought against Communists, we had to say bad things about them. We didn’t believe that Communist could be so horrible. Until I lived under Communism, I realized that we didn’t learn enough about it, not enough. At the time, we had freedom, you know. We fought them; we thought what we had learned were too much exaggerated. Later on, I thought we should learn more about that. My conclusion is that people only understand Communism if they live under Communism.

SM: Did you read a lot of the original writings from Carl Marx and Lenin?

MPD: The translations.

SM: The translations of those works.

MPD: Yes.

SM: What did you take away from those that was important for you as you started to fight against Communists?

MPD: The first thing I learned from their song. “Get everything from their hands to our hands.” I don’t think it is fair. We cannot fight Michael Dell to get his wealth, to take his money. We must work for our profits; the Communists didn’t do that way. They don’t convince people to work hard to make money, to be wealthy. But they convinced people to fight against the wealthy people to get what they have. Another thing I don’t accept is their slogan:  From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. I don’t think it’s right. You work harder, you get more. The people who don’t work hard get less. That’s real equality. People don’t work hard and share the things with the guy who doesn’t want to work. That’s why I don’t accept Communism.

SM: Did you read much of the writings by Mao Zedong?

MPD: Yes, sir. He wrote scores of books. But looked like there was nothing new if you can condense in one book. He collected his writings, documents, letters and put them in a book. Then he used the same stuff and reorganized to make another book. He has a dozen or 20 or 30 different books. But you waste your time to read the whole thing because his ideas are repeated in different books with different titles. The main thing is that Communists claimed they would create on earth a paradise where people live equally, and happily. But I don’t know how you can carry out that idea. How? People are not all the same, are not all good guys. It’s so sad that there must be good guy, bad guy. That created inequality. You cannot make them equal this way. No.

SM: Did you feel like the Political Warfare College prepared you for what you had to do later in your military career?

MPD: I think so, I think so. But at that time, the Vietnamese Army was not prepared to accept the political system yet. They didn’t believe the political system worked. When I discussed with my Commanding General, he said, “Oh, we don’t need you. We need people to fight; we don’t need people to talk.” As polwar officers, we couldn’t do anything. We didn’t have power. You can convince a guy if you have power on him as you are real leader. You can give him something. You can give him promotion, give him money, give him a leave four or five days. But as political warfare officer, I didn’t have that power. So, how could I convince my people if I couldn’t give him whatever benefit? A second thing, prior to our first class graduation, most of the Polwar officers were those who the commanders didn’t know where to put them.  Because they seemed to be useless in the unit. You know what I mean? They were considered useless. So the people - the incapable guy who didn’t fit the combat job, who couldn’t handle any other jobs, ok – were sent to political warfare office. When we reported to our units we looked at those guys. “Oh, so I am like this guy? The guy who doesn’t know anything? Who aren’t wanted by any commander? And I have to work with him?” It made us feel so sad about ourselves. But as time went on, things improved. But still not as good as we expected.

SM: When did you graduate from the Political Warfare College?

MPD: In May 1969.

SM: ’69. So President Thieu was in there.

MPD: Right, President Thieu, he paid more attention to political warfare so much.

SM: What did you think of President Thieu?

MPD: Somewhat he’s a good president. In certain areas, he’s not good. Because he covered up for his subordinates. He’s a good guy, he loved his soldiers. Every new year, he visited the outposts and stayed with the troops. He was very friendly to us. But the other hand, he trusted his friends and who he liked, no matter bad or good guys. Like I said in the seminar, the commanding generals were not selected based on his skill, but because they were liked by President Thieu. That created a corruption system in Vietnam. For instant, Colonel X. - when a regiment commander - was accused of corruption. During the time the Congress was investigating, he was promoted to one star General, and assigned Division Commander. That’s what we felt very upset about President Thieu’s wrong doing.

SM: How do you feel about some of the comments that have been made about the corruption in Vietnam and South Vietnam during the war?

MPD: Well, corruption is common in any country. Especially in the poor countries. I don’t have anything and you put a mountain of money beside me without any control and you expect to me to stay in my place not stealing anything? It was the American mistake. Before Americans arrived, living standard in Vietnam is moderate. We were not poor, neither rich. But when Americans come, bringing luxury stuff we had never seen before. Then the people who worked for American offices made so much money. It made a big gap between people in our societies; between the have and have not. The Americans brought their materialism into Vietnam changing our morality standards. When a general assigned by the President was not a good guy, he would ask money from his subordinates. As a result, the subordinates would ask money from his men. I remember once in 1971, my salary was 15,000 and I was asked to pay 200,000 dong for my company to stay in a base, not go on operation. The Battalion Commander told me, “It’s up to you. If you want to pay, I pay. If you don’t want to, we don’t pay.” We decided not to pay and we were sent to operation all the year round. The Regiment Commander was a Colonel; later he was promoted to Province chief and then, the 21 ^st Division Commander. He is now living in Houston. Another example is the case of General T.

SM: I’ve heard the name.

MPD: Right, you’ve heard the name and you’ve heard his story?

SM: I haven’t heard the complete story I doubt.

MPD: He’s a real bad guy. He has no skills but he moved up to Corps Commander from 2^nd Corps Commander to 3^rd Corps Commander through corruption only.

SM: How much do you think promotions like with General T. and others were dependent upon their loyalty to President Thieu?

MPD: Right, friendship, loyalty.

SM: They were friends and they were loyal and he could trust them.

MPD: Right.

SM: They would always stand up for him.

MPD: We know many good generals such as General Nguyen Duc Thang - the Minister of Development, General Nguyen Van Hieu, my former Division Commander, General Nguyen Chi Thanh, 4^th Corps Commander. A dozen good guys, but they didn’t stay long. Because if they stayed long, the other guys would look at them as obstacle; and you’ll feel danger for them. That’s why the death of General Hieu was suspected a murder. We knew, we knew but we didn’t have the proof. We didn’t have evidence, but we knew that he was killed. At that time General Hieu’s father was chairman of the Anti-corruption Committee. General Hieu is a very good guy. He was killed in his office. The guy who killed him got a promotion.

SM: Certainly. When you went from the Political Warfare College to your first unit in 1969, by that time a lot had happened in the United States. Tet of ’68 although a military victory for the Vietnamese, South Vietnamese military and the United States military had become a political defeat in the mind of Americans. So, Americans and the US government had started to withdraw American forces. When you learned of that what did you think, how did you feel?

MPD: Actually at that time I was in combat and I didn’t pay much attention to the news. So, honestly speaking, I didn’t know too much about the news because I didn’t have time to think about it. But later on, when I approached the papers and the radio or something and read the history, I felt angry. I knew that our fate, our destinies were not decided by ourselves, but by someone else. The war in Vietnam was decided in Washington. Even the Communists, the North Vietnamese, they announced that they didn’t win the war in the battle but in Washington D.C.

SM: You heard that in 1968?

MPD: No, at that time, I didn’t.

SM: When did you hear of that from the North?

MPD: After ’75.

SM: After ’75 ok.

MPD: In their books.

SM: In their books. You were at the Warfare College during Tet of ’68 correct?

MPD: At that time, yes.

SM: What did you hear about Tet and what happened at Da Lat?

MPD: At that time I was at my hometown and my hometown was not touched by the Communists. But about eight miles south of my hometown there’s a very, very big battle. About 3, 000 or 4,000 Communists troops were killed when they tried to attack the city, but they didn’t know how to get there. It looked like they got very bad propaganda. It looked like when they moved to the South their officer told them that, “We already liberated South Vietnam. No, you don’t have to fight, don’t have to fight. You come there and enjoy the welcome from the South Vietnamese people.” When they moved to the city, they wore uniformed, full dress uniform with medals. They prepared to be welcome, not to fight. That’s true! Let me remember it looked like in An Loc, 1972, the same way. When we killed them they had the full uniform, full dress uniform with medals. A prisoner we captured said, “I was told to come here to enjoy the victory.” Because the radio in Hanoi always said the wrong thing about the South Vietnam. Like they said they always won big victories, killing thousands of South Vietnamese troops, the whole battalion or regiment. They said they occupied the whole district or the whole province. Year by year, they have to declare that they liberated the whole South Vietnam. Now you move in to occupy only, not to fight. (Laughs)

SM: Did the people you captured in that type of circumstance, did they change sides? Did they say I don’t believe in my government anymore? Did they want to fight with you against their government?

MPD: To the North Vietnamese, no. Rarely. There are some, but rarely. Because they still had families back in North Vietnam. You know that the people who were born in that society grow up and educated by that society you cannot change his mind in one day or two days or one week or two weeks even they want to change. In the prison camps, in the POW (Prisoner of War) camps, they had their own system. They had the party’s system, the cell in the camp to control its people, everyone. They could not show any feelings.

SM: Either during Tet or after Tet did you hear about the massacre at Hue?

MPD: After.

SM: How long after Tet?

MPD: Not long. Not long after that. About one or two weeks and people discovered the burial sites and removed the earth, the soil and found out people have been tied to each other before being buried alive. All are innocent people, with some professors from Germany.

SM: How many people?

MPD: As we know more than 3,000. A lot of people disappeared. We don’t know whereabouts.

SM: What did you hear in 1968 as you learned of this what did you hear? Is it all of this? Is this also somewhat modern information?

MPD: Actually at that time we were back to our college. So we heard about it from our relatives back in Hue and from newspapers.

SM: So, unfortunately we have to end today. Thank you very much. This will end our first interview.